Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #6

[ironcat]

Hindsight is 20/20. I'm sure if Andi knew then what she knows now, she would have handled things differently and made different choices, even if it meant battling the producers. IMO she legitimately tried to fall in love with Nick, and that's why she kept him around and even slept with him, but it just didn't happen for her. Maybe it was solely because of Josh's presence, maybe her instincts were subconsciously telling her that she and Nick wouldn't be compatible in the real world despite how it appeared in the bubble.

Maybe Nick, in hindsight, would have also done things differently. They both made mistakes, many of which were the result of producer manipulation. The only true, non manipulated behavior we can really trust is all them is what they do post show, IMO.

[Ash2214]

Nick supporter here coming out of lurkdom briefly... If Andi wanted her fairy tale with Joshie to be wrapped up in a neat little bow she had many opportunities to make a different decision along the way. She could have been more compassionate toward Nick and his heartbreak at the ATFR, where IMO she handled the F2 situation more poorly than any previous lead. Or better yet, she could have not slept with Nick in the fantasy suite knowing how he felt about it and leading him on for the umteenth time. Or better yet, given that she said in her most recent Jezebel interview that if Josh weren't there she wouldn't be engaged, she could have dragged some other poor sap to the F2 to make it a show. Marcus seems a good candidate since she was physically attracted to him and he apparently falls in, and out of, and in love again faster than a New York minute. She knew Nick's history of heartbreak and having a hard time letting it go and she took him anyway. Making any of these decisions differently would have resulted in a different post-show outcome for her and Josh.

Normally I wouldn't agree with what Nick revealed on ATFR but within the confines of this show and Andi's demeanor it was perfectly legitimate, IMO. The resulting name-calling that Andi has dealt with as a result says more about the people doing the name-calling than it does about her, just as the people calling Nick a murderer, pedophile, etc. says more about them than it does about him, and several pages of posts more than a week after the finale about who Nick is following on twitter and why says more about us (and I'm including me here) than it does about Nick.  :hidingchair 

I thought Nick's post in Sean's blog was very well written and there is nothing he did during the show or after that has changed my opinion that he is the same guy that Andi gushed over when she gave him the FIR. I, for one, am going to wish all parties well and move on. I've enjoyed reading everyone's various points of view, but after the winter from hell and the rainiest spring on record, the fact that I have spent most of the summer staring at my laptop reading about this ridiculous show and its cast members says something about me that I'm not too proud of. It's a beautiful day and I'm going to take my dog for a walk now...Cheers!  

I completely disagree with your thoughts on how Andi handled the ATFR. Do I think she could have handled the initial breakup with Nick better? Yes, but at the same time, that is a very difficult situation to be in. It seems like she didn't want to say too much because she didn't want to further hurt him.

Nick tried to get into contact with Andi on more than one occasion. He wrote her a letter, which she claimed to have read, and Nick insinuated in that letter more than once that he essentially wanted a second shot with her. At that point, Andi had been engaged to Josh for over two months and was/is seemingly very happy and in love. Why would she be super sweet, caring and all over Nick? How would that be fair to her fiance that she has apparently spent everyday with for three months? How would that be fair to Nick who wanted a second shot with her? Don't you think it could possibly confuse Nick even more and make him think that there was still possibly a second shot in the cards for them? In this situation, I firmly believe Nick needed some "tough love." Also, how is it Andi's fault that from the moment she stepped on that stage and sat down with Nick he literally couldn't even utter a full sentence? That whole time she looked at him waiting to say something. Finally, CH stepped in and asked Andi if she was ever in love with Nick and I thought she gave Nick the perfect answer.

Andi reiterated more than once that she cared for Nick. She genuinely liked him and she meant all of the things she said about him on the show. She even said she meant it when she repeatedly said he made her feel like a woman. She said she knows that if she were to do the whole thing all over again she would still have the same great relationship with Nick, but at the end of the day she said she wasn't in love with him. She even looked a bit afraid to say this because she didn't want to hurt Nick's feelings, but she said that there was nothing wrong with Nick or their relationship, but how do you compete with a greater love and a greater relationship? Andi even admitted her mistake and she said she probably should have said that months ago, which I'm assuming she means she should have said it when they first broke up.

Andi said what she needed to. She cared for him and had feelings for him. She cared for who he was as a person and their relationship, but at the end of the day she fell in love with someone else. Unfortunately, Nick didn't like what he heard. I think regardless of what Andi said, unless it was that she was in love with him or wanted a second chance with him, Nick wouldn't have liked it. Nick has even said in interviews he called her out on the sex thing because of how she was with him. For me, it was just retaliation. Plain and simple. For me though, Andi couldn't have done a better job at the ATFR. When Nick dropped that bomb on her she could have gone off on Nick, but she didn't. She continued to talk about the respect she had for him and their relationship.

[GuardianAngel]

Nick supporter here coming out of lurkdom briefly...snipped...

 :Hi!!: wastingmytime Welcome out of lurkdom! Come back soon!

[brittany4400]

Not attacking, I promise.. But just curious! Nick following the tweeter that made some crude sexual jokes to Josh and Andi about her and Nick was just disgusting and horrible of him, yet this mocking letter about Nick raping Andi that is retweeted by Andi's best friend(you know good and well Andi read it and knew that she retweeted it) is funny? Just curious. I personally don't mind either cause I take it for what it is, just some rude snarking. I would think that Andi,Nick, and Josh would be able to handle it, after signing themselves up for a reality show, after all.

[GuardianAngel]

Not attacking, I promise.. But just curious! Nick following the tweeter that made some crude sexual jokes to Josh and Andi about her and Nick was just disgusting and horrible of him, yet this mocking letter about Nick raping Andi that is retweeted by Andi's best friend(you know good and well Andi read it and knew that she retweeted it) is funny? Just curious. I personally don't mind either cause I take it for what it is, just some rude snarking. I would think that Andi,Nick, and Josh would be able to handle it, after signing themselves up for a reality show, after all.

I know what you mean, that's how I felt. However the semi consensual sex IMO was taking me to questions I didn't want to visit in my head, again. We know it was consensual for him, where does that leave her?

Oh right, she wasn't 100% sure that it was Josh so she semi consensually agreed.  

[Cari]

Hindsight is 20/20.  I'm sure if Andi knew then what she knows now, she would have handled things differently and made different choices, even if it meant battling the producers.  IMO she legitimately tried to fall in love with Nick, and that's why she kept him around and even slept with him, but it just didn't happen for her.  Maybe it was solely because of Josh's presence, maybe her instincts were subconsciously telling her that she and Nick wouldn't be compatible in the real world despite how it appeared in the bubble.

Maybe Nick, in hindsight, would have also done things differently.  They both made mistakes, many of which were the result of producer manipulation.  The only true, non manipulated behavior we can really trust is all them is what they do post show, IMO.  

Seriously, with nary sarcasm, i do get where Nick is coming from. He could not wrap his head on the fact that they "made love" and yet you're engaged with another man. It just doesn't add up! (not only because im poor in math! eww. corny ) In our "world", my ancestors would turn in their graves when they learn i've behaved that way. Plus, im not built that way, too.

However, as Lucas stated. Our "world" is different from the Bachelor Bubble. In our world, i agree with what Nick is saying in his blogpost. In our world. But in the Bachelor Bubble that has been in existence for more than 10 years, that's where i question a seemingly "naive" F2 Nick or psycho F3 like Ashlee. Especially if those entering the show have watched past seasons. I agree with someone who said here, if you cannot swim with the tide then don't join the show. And that works both for Andi and Nick  

[MiaHawk]

I'm sure that this post will be seen as too heady by some. I don't really expect too many replies. I just want to pose a few questions and thoughts. Maybe some of you will think about these things privately instead of posting.

I don't really want to focus on Nick/Andi's situation because it is a bizarre reality tv situation, but I prefer to think of these things in the general terms, in real life terms.

1) I've seen some references made to the fact that alcohol may have influenced N/A's actions in the FS. If somebody uses alcohol IRL does that excuse their sexual behavior? My son is entering college this month and is required to complete an online alcohol and sex ed program by his college. 1 in 5 females and 1 in 16 males experience unwanted sexual advances. Is alcohol a legitimate excuse for some people to explain away their own behavior? Isn't the decision to drink or not drink also a responsibility?

2) I've seen some references to A's actions like "I wouldn't have had sex with N, but some people view sex differently". So, in assessing why YOU personally would NOT have had sex, aren't you basing that decision on your own set of moral standards? Moral standards are beliefs that you hold that can be held up as solid reasons for why you would or would not behave a certain way. If you use that moral standard to assess that YOU would NOT have had sex (in a similar real world situation), then how can you easily dismiss it as ok for somebody else to do? Wouldn't you hold that somebody to the same moral standards that you hold yourself?

3) Okay this one IS about A/N specifically: If consensual sex (meaning not forced physically) between two adults is LEGAL, does it necessarily mean that it is MORAL? For example, statutory rape is considered illegal and immoral because there is an assumed mismatch of power/understanding between the adult and child. The child can be coerced into thinking sex is a good idea by the older, more powerful adult, thus the adult is seen to be taking advantage of the minor. It is a legal requirement for certain professions to be mandatory reporters of such sexual intercourse. The same sort of thing can be considered sexual harassment at work. If a powerful boss makes advances on a subservient worker it could be seen as manipulation and intimidation. While not illegal from a consensual standpoint, it could be covered by the newer sexual harassment laws. While, it is a stretch, do you think any of these concepts apply to A/N's situation? What there an imbalance of power? Was there an element of intimidation?

4) The biggest problem I see with sex in our society is that it is becoming more and more common for it to be thought of as nothing truly special. It's just an act of physical enjoyment regardless of the feelings, love, commitment level between the two participants. While it can be explained away as being acceptable IF the two people are 'on the same page' emotionally, are people truly being honest with one another? Are they putting their cards on the table about how they really feel before having sex? Can two people be on the same page emotionally before and after sex?

5) Are we as a society still treating are sons differently than our daughters? Or are we now lowering the expectations of our daughters to that of our sons? Boys will be boys, sow his wild oats, etc have long been acceptable norms for men. Instead of lowering our standards for our daughters, shouldn't we be raising those old standards for our sons? Does this simply have to do with pregnancy? Boys can't get pregnant, so go have your fun. Now, with contraception our daughters can go have the same amount of fun? Have we always as a society had a liberal view of sex? Has it changed since the 60s? Are we better of or worse for it? As a society and as individual has increased sexual freedom improved the quality of our lives or has it made for more messy complications?

6) What exactly is a sl**? What exactly is a man whore? And if you live by a certain moral standard and can defend your actions, then how can someone else shame you? Privately or publicly? If you cannot justify your actions using a personal code of ethics, then does that point to the fact that you are doing something that you shouldn't be doing? I've taken ethics courses. I've had to defend a stance using moral standards. It's harder than you think. It often makes you question some of the assumptions you've held, the influences that society or the media has had over you, the beliefs that you've held. Because when you're literally asked to put down in writing what you think and why you think it, you often find that there are contradictions within yourself.

So, I challenge anyone here who is interested to think about some of these questions in terms of common moral standards. If not, then no problem either. Peace.

[Lucas15]

The only true, non manipulated behavior we can really trust is all them is what they do post show, IMO.  

I had a post written but never posted that took a lot more words to say the same thing:

I doubt many - or any - of us ever knew or had ever heard about Nick Viall before the show started to air and therefore had no opinion of him; the same is true of nearly every other person on the show except for Andi, and all we really knew about her was what we saw on JPG's season. During the season many things were filmed but we didn't get to see them; all we got to see is those portions that the producers felt showed a person in the role they were chosen to play, and even then they were poked and prodded by the producers to do and say things that supported that role. Based on this information (which is hardly unbalanced or even accurate) we formed opinions and ended up liking, or not liking, a cast member. Is that fair? Probably not.

Once filming is complete and the finale has aired is the first time anyone on the show can begin to be viewed without the filter of the edit and the role they played on the show we just watched. In general we get a good deal less information but what we do get, through interviews and these days social media, is for the first time unfiltered and more controlled by the person themselves than by the producers.

[Catdwoman50]

Nick supporter here coming out of lurkdom briefly... If Andi wanted her fairy tale with Joshie to be wrapped up in a neat little bow she had many opportunities to make a different decision along the way. She could have been more compassionate toward Nick and his heartbreak at the ATFR, where IMO she handled the F2 situation more poorly than any previous lead. Or better yet, she could have not slept with Nick in the fantasy suite knowing how he felt about it and leading him on for the umteenth time. Or better yet, given that she said in her most recent Jezebel interview that if Josh weren't there she wouldn't be engaged, she could have dragged some other poor sap to the F2 to make it a show. Marcus seems a good candidate since she was physically attracted to him and he apparently falls in, and out of, and in love again faster than a New York minute. She knew Nick's history of heartbreak and having a hard time letting it go and she took him anyway. Making any of these decisions differently would have resulted in a different post-show outcome for her and Josh.

Normally I wouldn't agree with what Nick revealed on ATFR but within the confines of this show and Andi's demeanor it was perfectly legitimate, IMO. The resulting name-calling that Andi has dealt with as a result says more about the people doing the name-calling than it does about her, just as the people calling Nick a murderer, pedophile, etc. says more about them than it does about him, and several pages of posts more than a week after the finale about who Nick is following on twitter and why says more about us (and I'm including me here) than it does about Nick.  :hidingchair 

I thought Nick's post in Sean's blog was very well written and there is nothing he did during the show or after that has changed my opinion that he is the same guy that Andi gushed over when she gave him the FIR. I, for one, am going to wish all parties well and move on. I've enjoyed reading everyone's various points of view, but after the winter from hell and the rainiest spring on record, the fact that I have spent most of the summer staring at my laptop reading about this ridiculous show and its cast members says something about me that I'm not too proud of. It's a beautiful day and I'm going to take my dog for a walk now...Cheers!  

I can empathize.  ITA with your whole post wasting... summed up all of my sentiments. Thanks

[sbolduc]

The only true, non manipulated behavior we can really trust is all them is what they do post show, IMO.  

I had a post written but never posted that took a lot more words to say the same thing:

I doubt many - or any - of us ever knew or had ever heard about Nick Viall before the show started to air and therefore had no opinion of him; the same is true of nearly every other person on the show except for Andi, and all we really knew about her was what we saw on JPG's season. During the season many things were filmed but we didn't get to see them; all we got to see is those portions that the producers felt showed a person in the role they were chosen to play, and even then they were poked and prodded by the producers to do and say things that supported that role. Based on this information (which is hardly unbalanced or even accurate) we formed opinions and ended up liking, or not liking, a cast member. Is that fair? Probably not.

Once filming is complete and the finale has aired is the first time anyone on the show can begin to be viewed without the filter of the edit and the role they played on the show we just watched. In general we get a good deal less information but what we do get, through interviews and these days social media, is for the first time unfiltered and more controlled by the person themselves than by the producers.

Agreed I have said this before we will know more about who these characters really are as people in the next six months post show. I don't think we know enough right now to make a proper judgment. IMO.

[Litta123]

 gabriele ... I like your thoughts ...
even tho' I do believe that Nick has been genuine, real and true ... I also don't believe he was still broken up over Andi. But I do believe in his heartbreak ... when it happened ... and in his hurt feelings ... when he had to relive it all over again.
I believe his real heartbreak wasn't so much about Andi not choosing him, but all about the thought that he found a girl who he felt a great connection with [like he hasn't experienced before, so he thought that must be IT ... a girl to marry] and then realizing that it wasn't all real, that she didn't feel it [to the contrary of what she was saying in her PIs, ITMs, to him].
That was heartbreaking. To know that you've been played ...

So yeah, Kudos to Andi ... I applaud her for the game throughout the season ... and for being a great bachelorette, who got so many guys falling ...

but the end shows ... that she isn't that good of a player [I guess that much they have in common with Nick] ... because when the game is over ... a good player has to lay down the cards and at least acknowledge the hurt of their opponent [for the game, not all the rest that followed after] And if they don't feel sorry, don't ... no need to ... but I would care less about their gloating.

Gosh, I had plan to stay out of this discussion because, like some have pointed out, it's not black and white. It's complicated. I find myself seeing both sides. I think it's a great discussion for our culture to have, but I just wish it wasn't so personalized to Nick and Andi.

Anyway, happy, you drew me into this discussion by the bolded above. I agree with your thinking. It's not to say that there weren't genuine feelings toward Andi, herself, but I think the real heartbreak is as you stated above. I found it interesting that the first words we were shown (so perhaps it was edited this way) when Nick was driving away in the limo were, "God, I feel like such a fool." He thought he had found the real thing and instead he felt played. It seemed to shake him to his core.

[Cari]

Mia! We posted at the same time! My post above you is somehow my answer to you. In Real Life, I wouldn't even go near a "Fantasy Suite" whether literally or figuratively. So if we will discuss Sex, our preferences, our habits in Real Life? The Bachelor/Bachelorette is not the Biblical pattern of our moral lives.

However, in the Bachelor Bubble, THE Fantasy Suite is a metaphor. Almost everyone if not all who joins and watches the show have an unspoken understanding what The Fantasy Suite represents. The "invitation card" read before that "date" imply Sex happens It is more a rule than an exception, whether your mind is in the gutter or not.

We cannot, imo, impose our moral values in Real Life to those who choose to "use" it or not. We cannot use our very own personal principles as a baseball bat to hit those who join the show. Because that is not Real Life.

As one of those famous writers live tweeted, there is a general understanding what happens in the Fantasy Suite except it is the first time that someone explicitly states what exactly happens. Resulting to the sl**-shaming effect. And imo again, it is nota question of whether it was a female or male who got the brunt of that effect.    Using our Real life values as a yardstick in watching a reality TV like The Bachelor and Bachelorette is not only futile but also utterly frustrating. imo, of course.

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